00:00.00

Henry

Okay, here we go I think we are recording at I think our levels Jeffrey give me your standard chat level. You're good. You're good. Okay, very good. You're annoying Michael thank you? Okay, everything's normal now. All right here we go boys.

00:04.48

Geoff

Standard chat level.

00:07.40

Mike

Standard Chad level Roger standard chat level. Thank you good to know, nothing's changed.

00:19.91

Henry

Hey, everyone it's Henry Mike and Jeff of the decentraalists and welcome to our latest episode from ki as you know Mike is in Kevin has been since ah August of last year and the last couple of podcasts we had a great chat with him he was discussing exactly what it's like living in a city that is often under attack. Um, and and they were fairly interesting but we actually never had a chance to to start investigating exactly why Mike has.

00:45.64

Mike

Yep.

00:54.70

Henry

Been there since August um, how everything started from our ah decentralized communication many one app to what he's involved with now which is pretty incredible. Political um, legal.

01:02.15

Geoff

5

01:10.87

Henry

Ah, it's it's it's pretty impressive Mike you there. Okay, good because I know it's kind of spotty there occasionally. But Mike um I've sort of been been been looking at at what you've been up to and I think it's time that we share that with the listeners in detail. Um, and you know.

01:13.70

Mike

I am here Henry. Yes.

01:30.57

Henry

I know Jeff and myself are looking forward to learning even more than the bit we already know so how are you.

01:38.80

Mike

I'm um, well aside from the from the broken arm. Um I'm I'm totally fine. Um yes you know the of what is it two weeks ago two weeks ago on Monday I you know.

01:40.22

Henry

Oh yeah.

01:53.38

Mike

Took a header down the stairs from the loft in my yeah in my hotel Ruben cave and managed to break my arm and it's yeah yeah, yeah, yes.

01:58.53

Henry

And you were sober.

01:59.10

Geoff

So so let me get this straight. You're you're in a war zone in a nation under attack with bombs falling an air raid and you broke your arm falling down the stairs. Do I have that correct all right? you.

02:12.44

Henry

In the middle of the night.

02:13.50

Mike

You you? yes you do yes that is this is this is absolutely correct. Um, yeah I Well this is I could have say exactly I could have said I got hit in the arm by a drone or something like this I guess Shrapnel you know.

02:17.56

Geoff

You know you couldn't make up a story like um George Costanza and we we would believe you based.

02:29.17

Henry

Shrapnel.

02:31.82

Mike

Drone something like that and that and I mean people have said you know, dude you should seriously make something up. Um, but you know I I want to be honest with our listeners and make sure that I'm ah forthright about the injuries that I do manage to do to myself. But I'm on the mend. Yes I.

02:42.64

Henry

Yes, but you're on the mend.

02:49.77

Mike

You know the irony is not lost on me that the Ukrainians got a chance to rebuild me before I got a chance to rebuild that. Um.

02:54.57

Geoff

But I do think it's I Do think it's fascinating testament to the fact that despite everything you know life is able to continue somewhat as normal there where you you know there are people.

03:07.51

Mike

And.

03:11.98

Geoff

Dying on the battle front. There are missiles in drones yet you break your arm and you can get it treated and repaired and you're you know and you you're back where you are So it's it's um I think it's a fascinating day and we've talked about it in the previous weeks. But.

03:14.25

Mike

Yep.

03:17.62

Mike

Yeah, yeah.

03:28.74

Geoff

Just reinforces that fascinating dichotomy of twenty first century warfare and and and what it means in that particular part of the world.

03:35.92

Mike

Totally well totally and and and I mean you know the you know the the kind of before the war. Even um, you know the kind of the health care system the surgeons you know the this type of thing have always been very very good in Ukraine. You know back in the days when the Soviet Union was around and things like this you know if if somebody needed some kind of sophisticated treatment like heart or or you know some kind of surgery they would go from Moscow to Kiev and get it done. Right? So it's it's always been there but you know the now that this war has been on. Um because I'm ah I was I went to this I was lucky enough I went to this private hospital. It's called Doro but it's kind of got clinics and hospital in in Kiev and you know they ah they treat soldiers as well. So there's people coming in in ambulances in you know in military gear and things like this and so you know another one of the things that you know, um, sadly, you know if you're going to go ahead and need some kind of an orthopedic surgical procedure for something like a busted arm.

04:27.59

Henry

Ah.

04:44.42

Mike

Or a wrist or an elbow or a leg or you know one of these things. Um, they're probably the best most experienced surgeons in the world right now in Ukraine you know what I mean because every day this this this place is um, you know is being set up. But anyway I digress.

04:54.20

Henry

Um, oh yeah, yep.

05:02.66

Henry

Anyway, Mike can I can I ask a question right? off the bat here. Um, we all know from the previous episodes that you arrived in ah Kiev ukraine ah back in August because ah you shared with us that there were many experts that felt ah the app.

05:03.78

Mike

Um, you know I sure.

05:13.59

Mike

Yeah, yeah. If if.

05:22.33

Henry

Would be ah, very handy, very helpful for those refugees or those that are displaced now my understanding is you are involved in so many things since then it's much much much bigger than it.

05:23.95

Mike

Math. Yeah yeah.

05:33.94

Mike

Oh yeah, what? yeah totally and and it will. It's audience all of us Henry I mean you know you meet Jeff we're all in this together whether you like it or not but you know I mean the you know the you know you flashback.

05:39.83

Henry

Originally was.

05:52.78

Mike

Say you know, kind of a year and a half ago okay and we were you know we were recording episodes talking about decentralization and identity and you know we had this this app called many one and we were going to you know, kind of give people the ability to connect and share and all this other kind of stuff without. You know by being able to and being able to control kind of what they would connect how they would connect with who and what they would have to share and and you know what ended up happening was that just that kind of idea of. Of basically self- attested identity and kind of self-controed connections actually lent itself really well to um, solving a problem of a refugee or a displaced person who has no identity documents.

06:45.54

Henry

Right.

06:48.16

Mike

They've they've lost them and and I mean if you look at the pure social site which is which is the technology side right? We we started with this idea of of a billion people have no birth certificate. Okay and this is the same. This is the same issue that somebody in you know Marie opal. Experiences when their apartment building was shelled and blown up right? They they're out at work other their their apartment building gets hit by a missile. Their apartment is now rubble. They have no land titles. They have no no documents nothing right? Maybe you're lucky you have your driver's license with you.

07:09.47

Henry

Ah.

07:15.57

Henry

Document No documents.

07:24.32

Mike

Right? But how many people walk around carrying their land title and their passport like nobody right? So you know So basically what ends up happening is is is as we mentioned last time you know we had the students at staff work with us and she did so did kind of some investigation and found out that being able to self attest to your identity and kind of your.

07:25.86

Henry

Nobody.

07:44.00

Mike

Occupation of a particular place would be um, an unbelievable help to refugees and idps. Okay, and so you know Ukraine is the homeland for me my dad was born here right? I'm a ukrainian canadian.

07:55.78

Henry

Ah, ah.

08:02.11

Mike

Um, and you know came here with ah you know with a couple of colleagues right? Academics John Unra and humanitarians igor spankovsky and we came here to um, you know, kind of set the stage for. Um, a quick resolution to the let's I but just say a quick resolution to the problems of displacement of 14000000 ukrainians like almost a third of the population.

08:31.66

Henry

Right.

08:36.32

Mike

And and just kind of provide guidance to the government. We called it. A guidance note right? So this idea we you know we we want to build this identity solution for refugees and idps we end up talking to academics and humanitarians who deal with this stuff for a living. And this kind of starts this spider web of different kind of initiatives that just rolled out of this. You know this this desire to help refugees and it's Julia right? yep.

09:03.65

Henry

Right? and hold on might be before you continue there just so people realize I want to make sure that people understand that the reason folks thought that our technology was was was the way to go was simply because it was decentralized unlike every other app that can that have been.

09:14.38

Mike

But. Yes.

09:22.34

Henry

Has been tried for refugees and displaced that is not only public but also has the um ah all the servers in the Cloud which can be compromised and are compromised by the enemies and those that are and and the aggressors. So the idea is you need something that's decentralized private and secure.

09:36.27

Mike

Um, yeah, well you know it's it's It's even simpler than that it just it's It's if what you want to do is provide the.

09:40.93

Henry

Continue please.

09:51.40

Mike

Most open and accessible solution for anybody like a technology solution. Okay I'm talking about a technology solution. Obviously if you want to provide and and a technology solution so that any human can. Self attest. So say here is who I am my name when I was born where I lived my family. You know all of these things it can literally have no requirements and and I mean Jeff can expand on this but it literally needs to be something. Where there are no hurdles for a person to access this There's no there can't be any account. It can't be tied to an email address or a telephone number or a bank account. Well I mean the cloud's not so much the problem in this case, right? It's more just.

10:29.91

Henry

Yeah, no logins.

10:36.57

Henry

Or in the cloud.

10:45.41

Mike

Um, you know well Okay, it's architecturally it's a problem but in in terms of like storing data there. It's not so much a problem in this case, the challenge is is you know like a lot of digital identity programs around the world things that are used to help people to define who they are and kind of.

10:51.20

Henry

Right.

11:03.88

Mike

Where they live in things they're tied to banking. They're tied to what's called KYC okay and so banks already have to carry all this information on know your client your client right? and it's this idea know your customer know your client. It's this idea of trying to stop money laundering and all these stuff.

11:13.49

Henry

Know your customer. Yeah.

11:23.60

Mike

So banks have to have a certain amount of information on people and so they're like well okay, the banks have already have this information. Let's just tie it to that. Well what if you don't have a bank account right? Those billion people I talked about it. You know, just a few seconds ago or minutes ago that don't have birth certificates are never going to have a bank account. So.

11:30.81

Henry

Yeah, yeah.

11:43.14

Henry

Yeah, no.

11:43.48

Mike

You know what happens right? and and in Ukraine is no different ukraine has a very sophisticated digital um identity application called dia but you need to have a bank account.

11:57.49

Mike

And you need to have some kind of identity documents in order to have Dia work for you right? and so you know this is where um, you know the standard ways of doing things on the internet fall apart and it just happens to be a coincidence that.

12:01.87

Henry

Right.

12:12.50

Henry

Right? yep.

12:17.27

Mike

You know the what we were trying to do with the many one application was to address the non-standard way of doing things on the internet right.

12:26.67

Henry

And so now it's just blossomed into so many other things and you were just about to start chatting about but you and the colleagues have realized that there's so much more.

12:43.57

Mike

Well, yeah I mean you know, um it it starts with there's you've got this issue of trying to get 14000000 people back into their homes as soon as possible. Okay, and so this is this this involves having to. Um, deal with like ah again identification where they live occupancy all of this type of stuff a lot of these people have had their homes destroyed. So let's let's let's leave aside right now the open hostilities of missiles and and drones flying over. Right? People some people are not coming back because they have 3 small children and then they're just not comfortable. Okay, coming back to Ukraine until then but a lot of people aren't coming back because they have no place to come back to right? and so so what you need to do? What do you do with these people. Well you need to you know you need to basically give them the.

13:18.34

Henry

Ah, but.

13:23.56

Henry

Right? Yes, of course.

13:37.55

Mike

Ah, surety that they can file some kind of a claim for compensation that that claim for compensation will be recognized by some authority and that at some point in the not you know too distant future. There will be some kind of rebuilding effort. Will end in your house being rebuild so you can come back to Ukraine with your family. Okay, and so this is this is big. So so essentially we came here with the the initial goal was to spend two weeks meeting with representatives of the government of Ukraine.

13:58.25

Henry

Right.

14:13.57

Mike

To talk about how they could make that process of resettlement and reassurance that that places houses you know Farms apartments were going to be rebuilt. Um as quick as possible was that simple.

14:32.44

Henry

Ah.

14:33.74

Mike

Um, and then you know as as it's like a big ball of thread you pick at one and then another one comes out the other side and next thing you know we're doing kind of working on 4 or 5 different initiatives at the same time but they all kind of need to be done at the same time. Um. You know? So it's been it's been a it's been a wild ride where you know two weeks has turned into what is it now Henry seven or eight months I've been here.

14:57.18

Henry

I was like yeah, absolutely so explain some of the initiatives that you're working on.

15:06.11

Mike

Boy um, well I mean um, you know the the first initiative was to as I just said to to work with the government of Ukraine to make the resettlement and compensation ah process faster. Okay.

15:20.93

Henry

Ah.

15:21.61

Mike

Then there was you know, but what was standing in the way of the resettlement process being formalized was there was no money the ukrainian government doesn't have any money so in order for the ukrainian government and they're running a deficit of five billion a month right because they've lost a third of their economy. And are at war. Okay, and so the ukrainian government in order to to provide um ah a vehicle or a mechanism for people to be resettled. They need to have a law of compensation that law of compensation due to the way that legal systems work. Is people filing ukrainians when their house has been destroyed right? They don't file a lawsuit against Russia they make a claim against the government of Ukraine this is the technicality. Okay.

16:01.86

Henry

Right.

16:08.85

Henry

Yeah, yeah.

16:12.90

Mike

So when they make a claim against the government of Ukraine Ukraine then just adds those all up right? and then just you know wraps them in a ribbon takes them to the international court of justice or 1 of these places and says Russia cost all this damage. They have to pay for it and they seek a judgment. Okay.

16:28.48

Henry

The.

16:31.12

Mike

Um, but the moment that you're the government of Ukraine and you pass a law and you say come on file your claims everybody files their claims and they expect there to be resolution right away and that that can't happen and so now all of a sudden this you know we've pulled this one thread which is get people back in sooner.

16:38.80

Henry

Yeah.

16:49.10

Mike

And all it does is unveil another weakness which is you can't get people back in sooner until you have at least you know, ah a pretty good idea that you're going to get the money needed to finance that. Those claims when people make them right? You know how we all love when we when our when our governments make promises to us and they don't fulfill them. You know what I mean and so so the idea is is you don't want to extend hope to a population that's already.

17:14.23

Henry

Oh yeah.

17:25.30

Mike

You know, kind of living onreight nerves in in other countries or in strange cities or villages within Ukraine and say okay, we're open for claims people file claims and like ah yeah, but we actually don't have any money to pay them so that leads to how do you find the money. Right? So if we want to help them salt and get people eat quicker. We got to find a way to pay for it.

17:47.72

Geoff

I think the other challenge that that Ukraine struggles with is um, they ah at least from what I read in the media in the west you know they are doing the best they can to tamp down this reputation of.

17:56.20

Mike

But.

18:04.54

Geoff

Being a nation full of corruption and and and all of these former soviet satellites even thirty years later or more are still. You know they're still so they're still struggling with you know, perhaps less so with latvian Estonia and so on but you know and I think. Being part of the eu for those for some of those countries helps but they are you know they're they're they're trying to shake off the shackles of corruption and and you know and all the putin apologists and all the you know the people that the.

18:26.69

Mike

It's right.

18:32.43

Henry

Soviet Era

18:40.51

Geoff

Love Russia helping to fan those flames even though Russia's like 1 of the most corrupt places on earth um, and and so I think what's also very important is as if and when this war ends and I'm going to say when this war ends.

18:44.62

Henry

Mr.

18:46.47

Mike

Yep.

18:54.47

Mike

Um, yep, oh yes.

18:56.96

Geoff

And likely trillions of dollars of foreign aid flow into Ukraine there is going to be things will just explode if it is you know if it's all gone to line the pockets of bureaucrats and all this kind of thing and so the more solid. Of an audit trail. You can have to to basically say this is the scope of the problem. You know we disperse the money to these people you know because their homes were blown up and you know here's the evidence. So basically anything you can do to help reinforce that audit trail. Helps to shake off those those claims of you know we're just giving our hard earned money to this corrupt country and so and I and so I think that is you know that shake off those lies. Really I think that's essential as well.

19:42.27

Mike

What totally.

19:49.58

Mike

Well and and and you know there's There's the next thread right? So now you've got you know you start with get people back in quick then you go but in order to do that. You need to have the money and in order to get the money you need to deal with the elephant in the room. Which is corruption. Okay, and it's and it's and and and here's and here's the and get guest gentlemen just conveniently what what was what was the most corrupt sector of the Ukrainian economy before the war.

20:10.40

Henry

Yes.

20:24.42

Henry

Construction was a guest.

20:27.65

Mike

Yes, totally construction. The 1 sector that needs to not be in order to in order to give you know as as Jeff just said the western donors or whatever. The surety that when they put a billion dollars into rebuilding you know I don't know chenaive or 1 of the european or one of the you know, kind of smaller cities that that actually turns into a billion dollars worth of of of homes and hospitals and schools and businesses and not. You know $800000000 worth of ferraris and vacation homes and 200 grand worth of 200000000 worth of houses. Okay.

21:11.54

Henry

Right? So so you're realizing this people are telling you this you? How are you able to make a difference. Yeah, how are you a make a difference or or the peer social.

21:18.67

Mike

Everybody knows it everybody knows it everybody knows it I mean you walk around well well you know so so you know Henry so what started to happen right? is is that you you start to you know, but by all means is not everybody is. Corrupt in Ukraine and thankfully you know we've you know in my time here I've met a bunch of really good people locals that are anything. We've got architects and engineers and designers and lawyers and accountants and things like this. Who are all people who are you know, just can't stand the fact that there's corruption but they know it's everywhere and they want to use this um opportunity to rebuild the country as an opportunity. To sorry as an opportunity to also rid the country of corruption. Okay, you know because because look at there was also there's you know there's a lot of talk about you know when the war is over Ukraine's going to be immediately part of Nato and immediately part of the Eu and all of this other kind of stuff which they should be but.

22:17.92

Henry

Who yes.

22:33.71

Mike

They won't be ready yet from a legal perspective unless they do something drastic. Okay, and so you know what started to happen is is is we've got all of these you know I'm here for six or eight months you know every time I I think I'm making progress in 1 angle something else comes up. Like oh man now you know we can't actually help them fix the law until we get the money and then you're like oh man now that we' got the money we can't actually use it in the country until we figure out corruption and they're like oh you know and you just start literally you start going? Oh my god is this ever going to stop. And so what started what? What finally happened Henry is we just we made this decision that um, we needed to take all of this different these different initiatives that were kind of part policy and part humanitarian effort and part kind of.

23:26.30

Henry

Technology.

23:27.57

Mike

Um, you know, get to technology and legal and you know all of this type of stuff and finance and everything and we needed to just test it all because we could you know we needed to just prove that you know.

23:39.23

Henry

Ah.

23:46.26

Mike

Everything could be fixed. Could you could find a way to quickly get people back to Ukraine quickly rebuild their homes award them compensation based on a mass claims process. Um, have the money come in from a western donor in such a way that it is it is dispensed in a transparent and open manner within the country. Um, you know do a whole bunch of weird things with technology and policy and all this in a petri dish right.

24:19.10

Henry

Aha.

24:20.25

Mike

So so what happened was we had all these different people right? We've got I think the last edit like we keep editing this. We have this concept node and this website for this group called the peace coalition. So eventually what started to happen is we had all of these different humanitarian organizations including pure social. Right? Which is developing the identity piece but we had all of these other folks. You know New America out of Washington d c a think tank that does land right issues and swiss peace out of Basel in Switzerland that does you know preserving peace and all of these other kinds of things and they all have their little part to play.

24:38.11

Henry

Right.

24:56.21

Mike

Um, so we needed someplace where we could all get together. So we've created this idea. It's called the peace coalition. It's it's essentially like a a nonprofit association federation. 1 of these words of. Kind of like-minded academics researchers humanitarian organizations you name it who are all working together to solve this huge set of problems that is happens to be in Ukraine right now just because it's happening right now.

25:26.85

Henry

Um, ah.

25:27.13

Mike

But it has applicability to basically anybody who's been displaced or suffered war crimes or human rights abuses whether it's climate change or war. Okay, and so basically we've got this coalition together and what we decided to do was say okay, we've got all of these different things that we're trying to figure out right.

25:30.59

Henry

War.

25:46.46

Mike

Get the people back in do a mass claims get the technology you know award the money find it from donors. Get it into the country or all of this stuff right? fight corruption right? I mean literally all of these things and we're like okay um, why don't We just try it.

25:52.72

Henry

Ah, organized political. Will.

26:05.82

Mike

And I remember this were only one one of these calls we had these calls once a week and there's like 30 people I said okay guys why don't guys and girls. Why don't we just try something and they're like what and I said why don't we just pick a village that the big right? We're not going to go and do Mary Opal half a million people let's just pick some place and.

26:23.64

Henry

As a test pilot.

26:24.70

Mike

Rebuild it like do the whole. Yeah, we call it a pilot project. So we basically you know with a couple of of of kind of local ukrainian colleagues. We identified 2 villages. Okay, 1 ne's called andrifka. And it's about 1500 people and like 80% of it was destroyed or damaged early in the war like we're talking March of last year and the other one is called Kozara Vchi and it's about 2000 people and it was about sixty seventy percent damaged um you know like in March as well and these are um villages where ah you know the people have now been kind of going. Thankfully, it wasn't a hard winter here or it hasn't been yet. Um, you know where people have been living essentially in cardboard boxes.

27:19.19

Henry

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

27:21.29

Mike

Or temporary shelters or you know their garden shed with like you know, whatever they could find nailed together I mean we visit these people and because our vg literally Henry their house a helicopter fell on it really early in the war you shot a hell you crushing helicopter down fell on top of this guy's house though. So so.

27:31.82

Henry

Um, yeah I remember you posted some pictures.

27:40.72

Mike

You know we decided okay wait a second. Why don't we just go to take some small villages and set up the technology and the mass claims process and bring in western donor money. It's not a lot like I think it's $26000000 to rebuild these 2 villages. And you know so and and set up the claims process in a way where you fight corruption and set up a transparent vendor registration in payment at b blab blah blah blah blah all this stuff where you can actually rebuild 1 village or 2 villages. And use it as a model to rebuild the rest of the country so instead of all of these different initiatives going on here. We are over here fighting corruption right? I mean to just point what was it of two weeks ago fifteen of the deputy ministers had to resign you know what I mean and and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

28:30.84

Henry

Yeah, yeah.

28:38.12

Mike

So you know instead of just waiting for all of these different initiatives government departments you know international aid agencies, blah blah blah blah blah to work out their one little piece of this huge problem. Why don't we just you know take 1 place and try something you know.

28:54.71

Henry

Yeah, yeah.

28:56.94

Mike

You know the old adage throw something throw it up against the wall and see if it sticks Well this is an opportunity. This is a war right? This is these are people that need their homes.

29:03.96

Henry

Um, yeah, well yeah, it's it's a fantastic idea I mean it seems to be much clearer to me now. Ah essentially what you're saying is. You and your colleagues have identified so many things that have to happen in order to get people back to pay them and to rebuild their homes but because this is a completely unique situation Russia destroying Ukraine. There's not some ngo or organization that will do all this and make things happen.

29:25.27

Mike

Totally.

29:33.19

Mike

No true.

29:35.66

Henry

You are putting things together. You're going to try and make it happen. It all started with an app but you're so much more involved in everything else right now because it has to happen and the people you're working with said. Yeah, let's let's let's give it a shot because no one else has these this entity doesn't exist because it's never had to before.

29:48.73

Mike

Um, let's give it a shot. No no, no, it's exactly Ah, you know I mean if if something doesn't exist right? Like if you've got a nail and the Hammer's never been invented right.

29:52.20

Geoff

Exactly yeah.

30:05.64

Mike

The nails useless right? And and in this case, it's not even it's not the fact that the hammer and the nail don't exist. It's just the fact that the guy who has the hammers over someplace else. You know with a hammer got no nails and the and the other and the girl over there has got the nails doesn't have the hammer and and vice versa right? There's a whole there's tons of. You know I'm wrong. There's tons of really awesome people in Ukraine right now from varieties of different humanitarian agencies and all this other kind of stuff trying trying to help. Okay, well it's it's well not just niche Henry. It's just it's the way they work.

30:31.88

Henry

Um, oh sure, a focus on only their sort of niche right.

30:44.53

Mike

Okay, so like big un n line agencies and stuff like this you know's like right now our coalition our group that's rebuilding 2 villages is around 30 people like un io m or the world health organization or one of these big groups has like hundreds of people in Ukraine.

30:55.39

Henry

Ah.

31:01.12

Henry

Yeah, yeah.

31:03.84

Mike

Okay, and they got you know they got the whole driving around the country in the in the Toyota high luxes and all this other kind of stuff and and I'm taking uber okay and and and but the idea is is all of these folks. They're just it's it's they're they're they're trying they're dealing with.

31:11.21

Henry

Yeah, yeah.

31:23.25

Mike

Kind of the um you know the kind of the acute symptoms. They're not actually trying to solve the problem they're here to p pile tons of of aid into areas and god love them right? I mean there's you know people this late all over the place.

31:34.95

Henry

Oh for sure.

31:39.32

Mike

And and so you need to have these agencies to go into places like herson and all this stuff and help people get totally and feed people and you know put kids in school and provide medical care and you know all this stuff but it doesn't it doesn't allow them to focus on anything specific.

31:42.58

Henry

And feed people.

31:57.10

Henry

Rebuild a country.

31:57.85

Mike

Totally and you know we're lucky we don't have any bureaucracy right? We don't We don't really have to answer to anybody you know we we're going to get money from ah from you know, hopefully from a from a western donor government agency. Whoever to basically.

32:05.40

Henry

Are.

32:17.64

Mike

Do something real to going to try to solve ten problems on a really small scale rather than trying to solve. You know one problem on a massive scale right? Totally totally.

32:29.50

Henry

Um, yes, yes, and that's the pilot project. Okay, all right? Um Mike I oh absolutely? Um, the thing is Mike.

32:35.13

Geoff

And and you really I mean you have to start somewhere.

32:39.38

Mike

Totally.

32:44.90

Henry

This discussion has opened up so many more questions for for myself and Jeff I know um, ah we would like to have another session to get into some more details because I have it just seems complex but it seems like you're knocking these things off 1 by 1 and.

32:57.79

Mike

I Know trust me, yeah.

33:04.90

Henry

It's it's It's pretty exciting. Um, we'd like to we'd like to chat with you again in the very near near future and continue this. Okay thank you slavva your crany.

33:09.82

Mike

absolutely absolutely Henry thank you gentlemen Slava ukrainy arrow and slava later.

33:17.27

Geoff

Slavkrai Thanks for the great update bye.