Decentralists in Ukraine - Techraine

00:00.00
Henry
And we will talk about technology I guess okay guys ready hey everyone it's Henry Mike and Jeff of the decentralists and welcome to our latest episode from keev ukraine now I'm sure most of you know that Mike's been there for quite a while since August of last year of course.

00:02.40
Mike
Yes, sir.

00:20.00
Henry
And um, we have discovered a lot of things about Ukraine and and and and what it's like living in a war zone and a big european city. Ah, but Mike what we'd like to do this week is finally give you a chance to talk about technology and what I mean by that is is how technology is so pervasive. In Ukraine and what you've experienced um compared to I guess what we consider our Baseline North america

00:39.54
Mike
Yep.

00:47.85
Mike
Right? Um, well you know Henry it's it's kind of one of these things right? where you don't know what to expect? Um, you know Ukraine is has been is one of these kind of you know eastern european former soviet countries. You know, kind of like. East Germany and and the czech republic and Poland and all of these places and it is arguably the one that has still been under the kind of the eastern influence say the longest right? Yeah well I mean you know you think about it I mean.

01:14.37
Henry
Really.

01:19.96
Mike
Prob was kind of you know, liberated back in the in eighty nine ninety and then they've you know they've since then they've done wonderful things to restore the old buildings and paint them up and do all this stuff but you don't really know what to expect you think Ukraine seems to be closer.

01:27.99
Henry
Right.

01:34.48
Mike
You know to Russia I mean right on the border and and all this other kind of stuff so you kind of expect it to be backwards when it comes to technology and in certain things it is you know like I basically every 2 minutes and forgive me if you get interrupted. It'll sound like you know, basically rolling thunder behind me because they have these you know. Thousand Year old eighty ton traw electric trolley cars that roll around my neighborhood and pull deal right? and he seriously they shake the whole building and there's like you know paint peel and off them and all of this other kind of stuff but they just work right? Um, but in ah.

02:06.71
Henry
Okay.

02:09.70
Geoff
and I and I think when we've talked about ah you know the the struggles that Ukraine has with corruption and and these kind of things. It's it's worth mentioning that you know former soviet bloc nations like Latvia and Estonia and these countries.

02:27.80
Geoff
They're relatively small so it's pretty easy for them to to pivot and you know and East Germany had you know billions of deutschemarks now euros that that float in to to help them pivot and prague and the czech republic.

02:29.63
Mike
Correct.

02:46.68
Geoff
You know they were very much deep in Europe they they joined the eu so you know millions of dollars float in there as well. But but for somewhere like Ukraine to pivot I think a lot of people just it's difficult for people to recognize how how large the nation is I mean when Biden visit.

02:51.86
Mike
Correct.

03:05.84
Geoff
And he's riding a train for 8 hours when Mike talks about hang to keep riding a train for 8 hours I mean that that sort of gives you a sense as to how big this place is and how big of a challenge is to you know to pivot away from.

03:14.67
Mike
Um, totally.

03:22.38
Geoff
From Communist depression and pivot into technology.

03:25.92
Mike
That's exactly right.

03:26.60
Henry
That's a good point actually because you know many of the european european countries are relatively small compared to Canada or the United States but Ukraine is indeed the largest um in Europe and so so if it's going to change. It's got a lot of work to do.

03:40.47
Mike
Well yeah, and and I mean it's it's you're you're correct I mean that the country is large and I think that I think um when Ukraine joins the Eu it will be the largest country by Landmas in Europe and and so you know the distances are vast I mean the the.

03:52.32
Henry
Wow.

03:59.44
Mike
The border town on the kind of slovakian border is called ushkarod and it is a 15 hour train ride from Keith right? Um, but you know getting back to technology. Okay, so.

04:05.14
Henry
Wow.

04:13.20
Mike
You know I I come to Ukraine you kind of figure. Okay, you know x x kind of soviet state at war you know all this other kind of stuff. What do you expect? and and the first thing I notice when I I get here and I kind of get myself checked into the hotel and everything is that I literally have the crappiest foam in the entire like.

04:31.90
Henry
You mean your your own personal cell phone.

04:32.26
Mike
Country my personal phone so I went out I no seriously. So so um I I went out and I got ah I have like an iphone 12 or something and I got like an Iphone x r or something like this just as a travel thing. Right? So I can put another sim in it, everything and my like iphone x r it's like I might as well be carrying around a black bear because all the kids here have like everybody has the brand newest the newest farm right? and get this There's no pay as you go plants here.

05:08.10
Henry
Oh yeah.

05:10.30
Mike
So yeah, there's no pay as you go plans here. The iphone still costs a thousand dollars or something like this and um, you know it it. They have to buy it themselves and yet they all have brand new and you know then you go into the restaurants and like covid they have.

05:20.17
Henry
Okay.

05:28.98
Mike
The Qr code things. Um you know, kind of on the on the table and you scan it for the menu but you also scan it to order. You can also use you so you scan it. You can order your things they'll bring it to the table and you can pay.

05:35.20
Henry
Right.

05:44.12
Henry
Um, you mean all with your phone.

05:47.42
Mike
Hold your phone. Um, you know they have you know there's there's ridesharing like Uber Well Ukraine has three Uber Bolt and youlaw. So you know what I mean I call it I call it I call it Ukrainian roulette.

05:52.54
Henry
Sure yeah.

05:57.98
Henry
Wow.

06:06.00
Mike
Because every every night you know when it's like with it. The curfew used to be eleven o'clock and a couple weeks ago they turned it made it to midnight and so every time it's like say like 10 30 or now eleven thirty everybody standing around the street with their phones on trying to order Caps Boltz Hoovers or youons. Um.

06:13.43
Henry
Um, ah.

06:23.80
Henry
Ah, okay.

06:25.69
Mike
And so you know it's so these are these are the types of things and and so everybody has a digital bank card and so you'll sit there and um, you know I'll say I pick up the dinner. Well you just you just basically type in. My card number or even just tap your phone to mine and you can transfer the 200 read like it's.

06:48.49
Henry
You know that's really interesting Mike because all this stuff that you're describing. Yeah, most of us have heard about it here in the west like it's coming but every week you hear about something that's coming and it doesn't.

06:57.41
Mike
Um, right? Well exactly and and and and you know like there's there's been all these different guests from all over the world right? and and so oddly enough, the people that generally are the are the most backwards are the americans. And so like they don't need is right.

07:14.37
Geoff
Well, it's funny. You should say that because I was just thinking I was in Florida last week and I'm in a restaurant in Florida I go to pay my meal I put my credit card down they pick it up. They take it away and ah. Run it through some machine at the bar and then they come back with a little folder and then you sign your name and you add the tip and they take that away again even at the airport. You know you're you're getting all these little slips of paper and signing them and and doing all this business and we haven't even had that in Canada for 15 years

07:32.54
Mike
Totally.

07:41.48
Henry
Ah, that's old school.

07:46.70
Geoff
So it's ah you know it's pretty pretty mind-blowing how how how backwards the US is in that respect now we could spend a whole other podcast talking about the privacy implications of tapping phones together to pay and everything being tracked and hacked. But but if we just.

07:48.13
Mike
Um, totally.

07:59.31
Henry
Right.

08:00.16
Mike
Right.

08:04.49
Geoff
Push that aside for a second and just just think about technology. It's probably still safer than the server taking my card away to some room behind the bar to to run it through some machine.

08:13.75
Mike
Totally where they're running 5 copies of it through the little charge x machine member that in the day the way you had that piece of paper um with the with the triplicate stuff. Um, you know? Yeah, it's crazy right? and I mean half the people that come here from the states don't even have um chips in their cards.

08:18.97
Henry
Um, oh yeah, oh sure.

08:19.26
Geoff
Yeah, yeah.

08:28.80
Henry
Oh really, that's fascinating because now as you probably know I just received a brand new Visa card. There's There's not even numbers on him or rate no there isn't.

08:30.94
Mike
Like so smart chips. They can't tap.

08:40.84
Mike
Um, there's not even numbers on the raised numbers anymore. No no.

08:42.53
Geoff
And it's funny because when I was in the US last week here and there I would tap my card and so some of the terminals accepted and the the clerks and servers were kind of startled. It's like what are you doing and then it would work. It would spit out a receipt and they're like oh. And and other times you stick your card in and it doesn't even ask for a pin. So yeah, it's ah it's pretty weird.

09:06.62
Henry
Um, my getting back to technology and in in Ukraine it give us a few more examples and then my question for you is how did it become so relatively advanced. Do you think.

09:10.83
Mike
Um, yeah.

09:19.24
Mike
Um, um, you know it's It's interesting. There's the most the most kind of technically advanced piece of this techno of let's say this tech techno Umbrella here um is the digital identity idea.

09:36.27
Henry
Now What's that for our listeners.

09:37.16
Mike
So they have so dia um is the name of the digital identity application for Ukraine. So the idea is it's made by the department of digital transformation.

09:47.21
Henry
Um, and who produces that.

09:50.99
Henry
Okay, government. Yup.

09:53.56
Mike
And right? and so so what happened is is about say I want to say about fifteen or twenty years ago the ukrainian government made a kind of a strategic decision that they were going to focus the education system and the population and everything on technology. Because they had a lot of young people. They have a lot of really good universities and they're like look we're going to be kind of like the contract programming you know area. The cheap place where you can hire you know european people on a european time zone versus working with say you know programmers in India or.

10:28.19
Henry
Um, like ah programmers and coders. We're talking about.

10:31.35
Mike
Yeah, exactly like people who make programs on computers and so you know so that kind of started this whole transformation of the ukrainian um kind of landscape where you know you have this this weird. Kind of dichotomy where you go out of the cities of the big cities like Kiev and Odessa and laviv and there's all these villages and in these villages you may not even have internet. And you have all of these kind of you know, babos and diddos out there and they don't have smartphones and they don't have email and they don't have any of this stuff but you come into cities and everybody does right? and so what they did is they have this digital identity idea which is is literally the.

11:06.61
Henry
Right.

11:17.30
Mike
Exact opposite of the way the rest of the bureaucracy in this country Works. So What you've got here is still a layover remnants of the old kind of Soviet bureaucracy where you know if you want to get a passport or you know a bank account or whatever you have you have to go to the bank and but before you go to the Bank. You know they or they make you gigy reform where you have to fill it out and then you have to take it just notary to have it stamped you know with an official stamp and then you have to take another piece of paper to somebody else. It's very very onerous time consuming and everybody's walking around with these little plastic folders that hold lots of papers.

11:43.52
Henry
Now.

11:53.92
Mike
But if you have this d app so you've got your ukraine passport or identity card and you just scan it like you do when you add a credit card to say Apple pay or Google pay and then it just it just creates ah an electronic you know, kind of identity for you. You can use Dea to um. You know within basically 3 clicks get a small business loan or a grant to build you know say a garden shed in your backyard or a greenhouse you can register a company in literally 4 clicks. No seriously um, you know all of this stuff right? It can all be done.

12:25.70
Henry
You're kidding.

12:31.45
Mike
Through this app and into the fact where I just read yesterday that they're exporting data to Estonia to be used as their new digital identity and and Estonia has been one of these places that was literally the is was the leading place in the world to have everybody have a digital identity.

12:40.87
Henry
You're kidding.

12:51.28
Mike
And now they're going to use Dia and and and so you know if you are digitally savvy and you have this dia app you can literally get through you know, probably half of the bureaucrat. The bureaucracy kind of things that you would normally have to do so you know I go in for example and.

12:52.25
Henry
And.

13:09.84
Mike
and and I've got dia because I have a ukrainian identity card and um, you know now I can literally do almost everything including filing a claim for damage to my home or or lander problem and so everything is on this thing and to Jeff's point

13:21.16
Henry
Her.

13:27.79
Mike
And and you know from my experience you know I've been. You know we've been talking about digital identity for years. It literally scares the crap of so it's It's not a.. It's not the type of platform that I would want okay for by identity in terms of the way it operates. But. What you can do with it. Its Functionality is incredible.

13:48.90
Henry
Oh so you're saying functionality I mean the stuff I mean we can't do any of that in Canada as you know with the government but the fact is the way it's designed. It's it's you don't feel. It's something you'd be comfortable with simply because everything's in the cloud or this or that or whatever right.

14:03.12
Mike
Absolutely and it's all not just in the cloud. It's all in a cloud. That's that's basically owned and run by the government. Okay.

14:09.87
Henry
Okay, okay.

14:12.73
Geoff
It's also a bit of a paradox. Well maybe paradox is not the right word but it's a bit of ah a challenge for these nations that are again trying to overcome corruption where previously if you wanted to register a company you might have to. Slip your paper application along with an ah envelope with one hundred bucks in it to the guide to get it approved and get the rubber stamp and do this and do that once it's all happening digitally. You don't have to bribe a server in the cloud and and it all just happens so you're you're kind of creating 1 problem of.

14:43.42
Henry
2

14:48.93
Geoff
You know, putting all this data into the cloud that I'm sure Russian hackers are drooling over but on the other hand you're solving this problem of frustration that the Ukrainian citizens would have as they try to.

14:52.84
Mike
Um, right.

15:03.34
Geoff
Overcome the corruption inherent that was inherent in their system.

15:06.31
Mike
Um, yes, absolutely absolutely so which is which is the bigger Eagle right? I mean you know this is kind of the thing so without with 100% I mean ah you know it's it's but it's just ah, it's just another. Um.

15:06.70
Henry
That's great perspective ying and Yang.

15:23.88
Mike
You know it's just another aspect of um, you know, kind of life here, especially during wartime and all this other kind of stuff but it's it's Funny. You know it's what it's doing is is it's also you know this this technology kind of especially with things like Dia is starting to. Change People's attitudes towards say the government and towards say things like corruption because it removes many of the of the normal types of things they would have had to where they could have encountered corruption. So The young people people are all like oh it's great I Just you know data tap balloon done right? Um, but it's It's what it does is is now everybody here for them. They're blown away by the fact that.

15:59.80
Henry
Ah.

16:12.50
Mike
Um, you know I have to I've been literally trying for two weeks say for example henry to do and out a wire transfer of money from the bank account in Canada to the bank account and it's it's and it's literally this long drawn out death rattle of a process yada yada yada whereas here if you couldn't just.

16:23.20
Henry
Um, yeah.

16:31.60
Mike
Tap a number and press a button and it was done people would freak out they would freak. No they would freak out. So so let me give you another example. So I'll tell you how mobile phone service works. Okay, so you have your phone so you have to have your own phone so you have to buy it right? So I have my phone I come here.

16:35.91
Henry
You're kidding.

16:49.56
Mike
You go to like the corner every any corner kiosk and you can pick like cave star or pop up or one of the local phone carriers and you get a sim right? You take that sim card. You put it into your phone. Ah then then basically. If you have an online bank account like I have I have a bank account Ukraine 2 of them actually and I have like the online app and what I do is I go into my app and I say phone top-up and I enter my phone number and then I transfer 250 rivna per month. On the sim. It sends me a Texas. Thank you very much and I've now got unlimited for the month and when the month ticks over I just go in and go phone top up the phone number is already there I press a button gone so you can literally send money payments do anything if you know somebody's phone number.

17:23.58
Henry
Who.

17:37.58
Henry
Wow.

17:40.72
Mike
You know it's it's crazy and so um, you know the the what it what it's doing is though is that you can start to see um you know how this this comfort and experience with technology starts to help people. A move away from the specter of you know, big government bureaucracy and corruption. But it also leaped frogs them ahead of basically the rest of Europe and certainly you know decades ahead of North America and seriously in terms of how people bank how people interact with their government. How people you know, move money around and and that's that's actually kind of one of the craziest things and so you know you sit around and and you know I ask I asked one of the one of the kids at the hotel. Um, just the other day. So so you had a day off yesterday. He's like gas and so what did you do? Oh you know I got up. Ordered ordered Mikedonald's from glo vote right? The delivery guys rolls up, you know you just go click click boom done. The guy rides up his bike you get your food and then it's lunchtime and you you know you order something else from the sushi place or whatever it is so every restaurant has you know some has guys coming around picking food up delivering it.

18:41.68
Henry
Ah.

18:56.58
Mike
Um, and they're all on bicycles or spooners or whatever it is and and that's just what people do you know it's It's crazy.

19:03.68
Henry
Ah, okay, um.

19:03.73
Geoff
But I can't help but wonder you know with with the whole economy. You know, based on these servers and you know who knows where they are well not the whole economy but significant portion of the economy. You know if Russia hacks them or. Even just blows them up or destroys the infrastructure you know now nobody can pay for anything. You can't even order french fries in a restaurant you can't you know you you can't do anything so it's you know it's it's kind of fascinating to think about you know, the fact that you can't just.

19:28.46
Henry
A good point.

19:40.96
Geoff
Pull some cash out of your wallet at the local florist. You know I I Just um I can't or or you know that's where it's marching I can't help but wonder you know if you if you or even if even if they knock down a portion of it. You know the cell towers or or whatever.

19:56.72
Mike
Um, right.

19:59.42
Geoff
You know, does it bring the does it bring the whole country to its knees and this is this is an example of where cyber is so the risk of sounding like Trump you know where cyber is so you know such a significant component of warfare now and compared to compared to the. You know the olden days.

20:21.25
Henry
Um, yeah, yeah, exactly.

20:21.73
Mike
Um, correct correct. Yeah and I mean I think sorry go ahead there.

20:24.19
Geoff
And you I was to say do you see any examples of where technology is is primitive or is it all you know all sort of cutting edge.

20:34.45
Mike
Um, ah well you know it's kind of where where you see a lot of like say primitive stuff is is in kind of the physical world. So You know? For example, Ah, the Metro. You know the underground is all kind of the old marble you know Soviet type stuff I mean it's very ornate and they got these huge escalators and all this stuff. But you know that like the turns styles still look like they were made in. You know the fifty s and things like this. So. There's there's that type of stuff. Um, you know, just.

21:05.73
Henry
Um, yeah, yeah.

21:09.94
Mike
The physical kind of look of the city. So you walk around and you know there's there's chunks out of a sidewalk or you know there's air conditioners bolted on the side of every window and all this other kind of stuff so when when you talk about the physical world. That's where it's still you know, kind of ancient. Um, but when you and but when you talk about kind of the virtual world shall we say ah it's definitely much more advanced but you know there there's no disappearing of cash here. So it's not like the nordics right? like I mean basically in places like Sweden. Denmark and stuff like this they're they're they're taking the society cashs and and that's something that as you know our good colleague and friend clap and Jeff Bristles at is this idea that you know well what happens if there is no cell service or what happens if you know Apple pay blows up or whatever it is I can't do anything.

21:55.35
Henry
Yeah.

22:06.45
Mike
And so there's still I still carry cash. Um, you know every everybody has still has cash. Um because you never know when you're going to need it and so you know it's It's not ah, it's not gone full circle but you know I can tell you that when they do it's It's going to be quick.

22:07.75
Henry
Right? right.

22:25.51
Henry
Ah, okay, all right? yes.

22:25.70
Mike
Right? It's going to be really quick I mean that my hotel's got a starlink on it right? You know we've got the starling for the internet. Um, you know all of that type of stuff. So it's and but but there's no five G I don't think here for example, right.

22:41.22
Henry
Okay, right.

22:43.14
Mike
So in certain things and that's just because of the um, you know the the you know, just the the building of the technology.

22:49.10
Henry
Well, they keep threatening about giving us five g here in Canada do they've been saying it for years. Well, that's a huge hardware investment and it's taking time. So I mean I wouldn't worry about that too much question. Ah Mike you have certainly shown us that that.

22:54.28
Mike
Um, totally.

23:05.16
Henry
You know the the ukrainians are are very very digitally talented I guess or adept they they know what they're doing. Do you think? Actually this is for you mike or or ah Jeff do you think that knowledge or talent is applicable in some fashion to helping.

23:08.14
Mike
Um, yes, yep.

23:25.32
Henry
Ah, in the war effort against the invading russians.

23:27.95
Mike
Um, oh well for sure it is right? Um, you know Henry it's it's they have a cyber army you know they within something like a week or actually I think it was in something like three days of of the war you know, kind of. Reigniting shall we say in February because it's been going on since 2014 right? But reigniting in February they they you know they put out a call for ah tech any kind of technology right? Social media marketing folks graphic designers.

23:47.95
Henry
Um, yeah.

24:03.46
Mike
Ah, hackers programmers whatever to join the cyber army of Ukraine. Okay, and it was crazy within three days they had 745000 people on a telegram check seven hundred and forty five thousand people

24:05.78
Henry
Nice.

24:17.10
Henry
Oh well hold on a second didn't we do a podcast saying you can't trust telegram because it's owned by a russian. Ah.

24:23.15
Mike
Yes, yes, we actually did yes, we actually did and I still I still maintain that and I still bristle at the fact that now seriously I still bristle at the fact that you know you hear Zelinsky announced today on his telegram channel like dow. So yeah.

24:28.36
Henry
Yeah, yeah, okay, that's another we'll do another podcast on that.

24:40.20
Henry
Yeah, yeah, understood. Um, yeah, that's that's pretty fascinating. We're going to have to do a yeah a podcast on on Cyber warfare If you indeed feel that it's ah making such a difference and that's what I keep reading about so that'll be coming.

24:52.16
Mike
Um, no.

24:54.21
Henry
Um, anything else. Ah Mike you want to talk about regarding technology that you haven't shared with us yet.

24:56.71
Mike
Um, um, only that um you know as part I ah to do our small part for Ukraine. Um, you know we have our technology. Um you know which is kind of oddly um, anti idea which.

25:06.49
Henry
Of course.

25:15.77
Mike
They sound weird but 1 of the things that you that you have one of the downsides of applications like the the digital identity app or things like this is you need to? there's certain requirements for you to actually access the app right? You have to have a bank account or you have to have a. You know a driver's license or something like this because you need that to identify yourself to create an account within this app. But what that means is is that anybody who either doesn't have a smartphone doesn't have internet access or doesn't have any of the required say two of 3 identity things.

25:38.30
Henry
Ah.

25:53.29
Mike
Cannot use data which means now they can't file claims which means now they can't easily apply for loans or to do things you know the stuff that you can do with Dea um, and when it comes to people being able to file claims for their damage their homes line and property.

25:54.86
Henry
Right.

26:08.00
Mike
To a certain extent less or you know more? So obviously for people who are wanting to report war crimes or human rights abuses. They may not necessarily have the the requisite access and they may not want to identify themselves and so our our app is is is up and running.

26:20.59
Henry
Who.

26:26.18
Mike
Um, it does not require any kind of login or any kind of identification of yourself and you can you know take a map of of Ukraine with a honeycomb laid over it zoom in on topographic like propergraphic features that pick your house out upload your data and file a claim and you don't have to tell anybody who you are. And then you can pass the phone I can pass the phone to Jeff he can do his own claim and then he can pass it to you and you can do your claim and if we're sitting around in some train station in Poland somewhere and we want to document you know what's happened to us and there's only 1 phone that's got a charge.

27:01.90
Henry
Right.

27:02.30
Mike
Then everybody can at least document their stuff So these are the types of things where you know when you're doing more specialized use cases or you've got more ah you know more? let's say just different different parameters to operate from you can use technology but it's like almost anti-technology.

27:21.84
Mike
Um, to you know to actually accomplish something good and so you know basically the you know the only thing I wanted to mention is that it's actually there and working um and it actually is is pretty cool. So you know we're hoping to do our part to kind of bridge the gap between the people who.

27:31.19
Henry
Yep.

27:40.90
Mike
Have everything all nice and slick their land titles their identity everything in D and they're ready to go and the people that don't.

27:48.49
Henry
Yeah, absolutely and I know that we're going to have some more news about that in the near future. We're just waiting for some oh some final approvals but and it's it's a long process but man you've been working hard. So everybody. Thanks you for that. Um.

28:01.62
Mike
Um, thank you.

28:04.62
Henry
Mike again. Thanks for ah for chatting I'm I'm a man you said that there was some ah some attacks today I'm happy there wasn't ah an air raid siren that sounded during this but um, stay safe. Oh brother. Well.

28:15.74
Mike
Um, it sounded just like 2 minutes 2 minutes before we started recording? Yeah, thank you very much my friend. Thank you.

28:18.23
Geoff
Yeah I'll say it every week and I'll say it again stay safe. My friend Bye for now.

28:23.66
Henry
Thanks Mike.